The fic's an AU--either you buy the premise of a non-canon team 7 or you don't. People who do seem to like the fic; not surprisingly, those who don't, not so much.

Having made it through what's been posted, I'd say that the writing is, at best, inconsistent. There are flashes of brilliance tempered by occasional amateurish crap. Some of the worst writing comes early in the story, when people are most apt to bail on it.

 

you are both children...
Naruto in canon fails completly at controlling his emotions and behaving like a ninja. He obviously has a talent for ninjutsu and absurd chakra reserves, but that wasn't what i was talking about in my post was it?
If you define "ninja" as "he who lays down the best smackdown" then Naruto is a good one. If you instead use the common definition then he fails at being one. Consider the battles in the Wave Arc between Zabuza and Kakashi (both elite), do they stand around and slug it? No, they make clones, feint, try to trap each other etc.

Seriously, i understand the orange jumpsuit as a "key point" of Naruto's characterization (that being brash, friendly, headstrong and loud) but if you can seriously tell me that you'd wear something like that for a job which might involve sneaking around i'd send you to the nearest shrink.

 

Slasheh: I both disagree and agree with you.

Clothes don't mean shit. They don't make people idiots, they don't make em into thugs ect. Clothes are clothes. If were really such a big problem then he would have been told to change his clothing a while back. Also, in Naruto, there are no ninja. If there were, then we'd have to replace the action with political drama for it to be entertaining.

But on the other hand, Naruto isn't a genius. You say that Naruto improved on the rasengan, took it to places where the Yondaime dreamed of, but at the end of the day, he had the Kage Bunshin hax to help him. Naruto is battle smart I admit, he isn't a retard and he does have talent. But I don't consider him to be a genius.

 

I don't know how many times I've said this, but a Narutoverse genius is not the same thing as a genius in the real world. Genius in the Narutoverse refers to ninja geniuses - people who have an affinity for ninja skills and talents.

Naruto is a ninja genius. Sasuke is a ninja genius.

Shikamaru is a real world genius. He is also a fairly shitty ninja.

There's the difference for you.

As far as ninja as they are portrayed in the Naruto universe go, it is impossible to make the argument that Naruto is a poor one.

 

Naruto is completely average in his ninja skill. That is why I said he is no genius, but not a retard either. What do you get if you take away Kyuubi with the way canon Naruto has been and is now? Remember, that his large chakra indirectly comes from Kyuubi.

That's right, you'd have canon fodder.

 

Howdy, while i enjoy your stories, you completly lack common sense...
Sasuke is a genius in the shinobi arts. Naruto FAILED the academy 3 times. We can invent 1000 fanon reasons why he did, but fact is he did. His chakra control is obviously shit, but he doesn't do anything to improve it. Now don't get me wrong, i like Naruto as a protagonist, but frankly it's pretty easy to see that anything he does truly well is in some way connected to the kyuubi (he can use 1000 Kage Bushin, but doesn't even notice that his clones learn things by themselves, seriously how thick can you be?).

What pisses me off the most is that canon Naruto doesn't improve himselve. I am sure in your own life you have come against obstacles you couldn't pass at that specific point in time (if you didn't blessed be and hope your luck holds), i've never failed a class, but the 2 times i came close i sat down and worked on it until i've improved to a point where i wasn't close to failing.
That's usually the way life works, but instead Naruto doesn't. He keeps bashing his head against the wall in the hope that it will break. In the case of his becomming a Genin a VERY lucky circumstance gave him a chance to show off the one skill he has (absurd chakra reserves) to offset the fact that he completly failed at the regular exam.

And yes, i know that clothes don't mean that much, but his orange jumpsuit fits his personality to a T.

To sum everything i tried to explain in my last 3 posts up into a single sentence: Naruto in canon would be the perfect Samurai, while many other ninjas behave excactly as they should, and THAT is my biggest problem with the canon and 90% of he fanon, that the ninjas who know perfectly well how he should behave do nothing to correct him.

 

Ahahahah...he's a bad ninja because HE MADE BAD GRADES IN SCHOOL. Einstein flunked math in school, you know.

I suppose his actual accomplishments (defeating Neji, Gaara, Kabuto, Kakuzu, Doppelganger Itachi, the Pain Rikudou, a fair case for Orochimaru, and so on and so forth - learning Kage Bunshin in an hour, learning Rasengan in record time, improving one of Yondaime's signature jutsu, masteriing Sage Mode, need I fucking go on?) are all meaningless because he didn't earn good marks on Iruka-sensei's history test. Get a clue, man. Measuring Naruto's worth as a ninja on the pathetic Academy is just...LOL. Sakura graduated at near the top of the class, and she sure was a paragon of ninja excellence in Part I, eh? No, wait, she spent every major battle standing around like a vegetable with a kunai in her hands while the 'worthless' Naruto saved the day. But by golly, she sure could throw a mean Kawarimi! As an aside, your genius Shikamaru ranked almost as low as Naruto did and was the only one of the Rookie Nine to make Chuunin in that first run at the exams. Surely this shouldn't have been possible. After all, he didn't make good grades at the Academy.

By the way, this idea you have that Naruto ninja are supposed be all shadowy and stealthy and silent deathlike is entirely fanon and has no place within the canon Narutoverse. Or did you somehow miss the way all the powerful and skilled ninja blow massive fireballs from thier nostrils, crap huge lightning bolts from their asses, summon talking animals the size of football stadiums to fight for them and demolish mountains with one punch. This is a shounen manga. If you like the whole 'realistic' ninja experience, suit yourself, but don't sit here and try to claim that it's canon and that Naruto is somehow doin' it rong because he doesn't dress in all black and creep through the shadows. Your 'real' ninja are generally the cannon fodder against the real badass shinobi that don't have to bother with stealth, and this very much includes Naruto (as well as Sasuke).

 

Not to pick nits, but Einstein's failing at school is an urban myth. He wrote his first scientific paper at age 16, which is fucking impressive. (I wrote mine at age 20).

I agree with the rest of your post, for the most part.

 

Just so you know, the basic premise of this story is that Kakashi, Iruka, and Gai are trying to turn Naruto into a Ninja Ninja, not a Naruto Ninja.

 

Sometimes i wonder if anyone actually reads my posts....
I used the school example to drastically show the difference between Sasuke (the acclaimed genius) and Naruto.
The point i am arguing here is not wether Naruto is a good fighter (obviously if he wasn't the manga would be rather boring or over) it is if he is a good NINJA.
And yes, most of the ninja skills shown in the manga are flashy, but then the people using them also use them with a modicum of skill. It really doesn't matter if you attack with knifes or fireballs for my argument, what i dislike is that Naruto doesn't THINK before he acts.
I really don't care about his history grade (except maybe that one should learn from history but meh that is a different argument) or the exam grade except that it can be used as an example for my argument.
You want to use Wave as an example? In the first fight Naruto froze, great job but frankly to be expected, he was green and completly unprepared (also treating the whole thing as a fieldtrip instead of a mission up to that point). Second fight he does one thing right, he tricks Zabuza instead of trying to fight him headon. Third fight he does everything wrong until he has to use the Kyuubi to save the teams bacon.
Wow what a convincing argument you used there.
The academy exam to paraphrase Kakashi is to show if someone has the bare minimum of skill to be considered a Genin, after that the Jonin perform a real test to judge their skill. Now let's think of the Bell test what exactly did Naruto do there except fail?

Ps: i never said Sakura is any better, frankly the only one who is worth something in part 1 is the emo.

 

As I recall, all three of them (including Genius Sasuke) failed the initial bell test equally miserably. For the second part, Naruto was tied to a log by Kakashi. What's your point? Do you think it would have made the least bit of difference against Hatake Kakashi if he'd tried to hide in a tree before attacking?

And...so what if he had to use the Kyuubi in Wave (though he didn't actively use it as much as it just happened)? If Sasuke had ended up saving the day using his coincidentally unlocked Sharingan instead, would that have been somehow different? Without Naruto (and the Kyuubi) all three of them (including Sakura) would probably have ended up fodder for Haku. Naruto, consciously or not, utilizes the advantages he has, just like Sasuke, Neji, and all the other 'geniuses.'

The point is (like it or not) canon Naruto DOES frequently think outside the box and pulls off some unexpected triumphs for it. His strategic aptitude lies in working on the fly rather than sitting back and planning some elaborate strategy and he does rather well with it. If he can come up with a winning strategem while engaged in combat while another 'genius' has to mull over it, who's really smarter?

 

True that all 3 failed, but consider their performance. Sasuke did best, but failed because of his arrogance (and it should be clear that i consider him an emo at best). Sakura failed as badly as Naruto did because she obviously has rather idiotic priorities at that point in time. Naruto behaved exactly as i described him, he acts rashly without thinking and charges in against a clearly superior opponent.
He does the exact same thing in the 2 fights against Zabuza and Haku, but he never learns his lesson. And yes, they were horribly outmatched in wave, but instead of learning the lesson he should have learned during the bell test, he instead continues on exactly as before.

Naruto's saving grace in canon is the ability to improvise a strategy on the fly and to call on the Kyuubi's chakra, considering how much more he could be that frustrates me to no end.

No matter what kind of ninja you choose one thing is always central, they are trained first and foremost to ambush, assasinate, steal, deceive, spy. Can you honestly imagine Naruto doing one of those tasks?

Ps: i have not read the latest volumes, frankly i've pretty much stopped reading since Jiraya got killed since he was my favorite character, so i cannot really comment on the changes that might have been made then.

Pps: i'll give up arguing this point now, since i've obviously derailed this thread rather spectaculary, sorry for that, i guess we can continue this discussion in Pms if someone is interested, but i don't think we should continue arguing in here since we rather left the scope of the fic and ventured into generalities.

 

Frankly speaking, this story is boring as hell.

It's non-stop training, Naruto being OOC, training, Naruto being a moron and the weakest link of the team. Up to the chapter 4, I didn't see any plot beside pointing out how stupid he is, and uber!training - it reminds me of all those indy!Harry fics that described Harry's training regime in detail, even when it didn't have anything to do with the plot.

My next gripe is Naruto using training weights - what the hell? I thought that this 'old and crude method' was used only by Lee.

I have to admit that the explanation is somewhat different from the one, that is usually given, but still any form of resistance training fails, when someone's abilities are a result of supernatural energy.

Also chapter 4 - Wave mission and the moment when I stopped reading this story:

Sasuke insulting someone's family? I don't think so.

1/5

 

Urf, terrible. Training montage fics choke me, and this one was poorly conceived to boot. Couldn't get past the second chapter.

1/5. Vote this one down people. =/

 

Did I miss this ^ training arc?

The only characters that act like the ninja you are talking about are the ANBU we briefly see here and there in the manga (slipping into rooms silently, completely covered in cloaks, assassination [although we're never shown, it is implied by the name, i think]).

When you think about it, Naruto is probably the most realistic character (pre-timeskip) in the entire manga. He acts exactly like a twelve year old with 'awesome' powers most likely would.

Also, the argumen of Naruto being worthless without Kyuubi is pointless. It's like arguing how useful Sasuke would be without his Sharingan. He wouldn't be an Uchiha then, would he? And thus, he would be a completely different character (Him being an Uchiha and unable to activate his eyes nonwithstanding, I think I made my point though . . .)

Without Kyuubi, Naruto would have been a completely different character. His personality and (sometimes) retarded mannerisms are a byproduct of who he is and how he was brought up - and Kyuubi is a major contributing factor to that.

On a completely unrelated note:

I may be completely wrong about this, but it's been bugging me for a shit load of time and I may as well point it out here since I think I saw the point mentioned earlier in the thread.

Are Sakura and Tsunade actually 'strong'?

Why? I always thought their 'strength' technique involved gathering chakra into a tiny point at the fist or feet and then releasing it in one violent burst upon connecting.

While that may create a devastating effect, that's not 'strength'. They couldn't, say, brake through ropes they've been tied by using that strength, or pick up a boulder and throw it.

I think I've read somewhere that she picked up Gamabunta's weapon?

How?

Isn't the theory behind the technique like I said above? Gathering chakra to a point and releasing it upon contact to break boulders and such? How does it enhance her strength? How would one use that technique to lift something heavy?

Any Naruto theory whores wanna clarify? This may be a bit of a thread hijack so you can post your answers in the thread for Tuebor, I guess. I've just been itching to have this question answered for a while now . . .

 

They use Chakra to increase there strength. It does make them strong.

Just like ninjas walking on water. Can they walk on water? Technically no since they have to use Chakra, but we consider that they can since they know how too.

 

No.

All ninja use chakra to increase their physical abilities. What Sakura and Tsunade do is to take that to the next level by using their incredible control to gather chakra to their extremities and releasing the force of that chakra all at one point and in one instant.

It would be closer in comparison to a Jyuuken strike than normal ninja chakra-enhanced strength. In other words, this is not a technique that actually increases the strength of the user. It is an attack that has a devastating impact.

Tsunade does "throw" Gamabunta's sword at Manda during the Sannin Battle, but we are never shown just how she managed to do this. From what we do know of how her technique works, it would stand to reason that she knocked it into the air as opposed to lifting and throwing it.

In short, there is no instance of Tsunade or Sakura performing a raw strength feat like lifting the enormous statues that Naruto did during his sage training.

 

This is what I figured - I just needed to clarified because it always rubbed me the wrong way when people mention Tsunade and Sakura being 'physically' strong and possessing 'legendary strength'.

 

well considering that Tsunade is a Sanin one would figure that she actually has SOME strength behind her chakra enhanced punches.
As far as the 3 were shown they all had Jounin level skills in almost every area, and some areas where they were exceptional.

But yes "the" technique isn't based on strength but instead on controlled release of chakra. The difference between this skill and Juyken is that Jyuken strikes aim for the chakra system. They are precise but primarily they attack the internal aspects of the body.
Tsunades technique works that chakra is gathered at a single point and then released in a massive burst. But aside from that, she is most likely an expert in using chakra to simply enhance her muscles as well considering the way she throws her desk and bunta's sword in the manga.

 

I'm looking at the battle between Oro vs Tsu and Jiraiya now and nowhere does it show her actually picking the sword up and throwing it. She lands on the butt of the sword as it pierces Manda's mouth.

Also, I really can't be bothered looking through the manga for this, but does it actually feature Tsunade throwing her desk? Or is that just in the anime to further promote overly abusive female characters as some kind of (un)funny gag?